Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy – BusinessWeek

Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy – BusinessWeek:

“Medical problems caused 62% of all personal bankruptcies filed in the U.S. in 2007, according to a study by Harvard researchers. And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness, including 60.3% who had private coverage, not Medicare or Medicaid.

“Medically related bankruptcies have been rising steadily for decades. In 1981, only 8% of families filing for bankruptcy cited a serious medical problem as the reason, while a 2001 study of bankruptcies in five states by the same researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to 50% of all filings. This newest, nationwide study, conducted before the start of the current recession by Drs. David Himmelstein and Steffie Woolhandler of Harvard Medical School, Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law School, and Deborah Thorne, a sociology professor at Ohio University, found that the filers were for the most part solidly middle class before medical disaster hit. Two-thirds owned their home and three-fifths had gone to college.”

The abstract is here, I cannot access the full text, unfortunately.

McCarthyism and health reform – Joe Paduta

Managed Care Matters:

“Ya gotta do your research.

“That’s a basic lesson in the business world, but one that some seem to forget. The latest example – actually there are two – comes courtesy of Grace-Marie Turner of the Galen Institute. Ms Turner sent me an email, copied below.”

Read on and then say it with me, “Oh, snap!”

Health Care Reform – Old School!

Donald J Palmisano was President of the AMA for the 2003-2004 term. You can jump to his bio at his company’s website. Apparently he also sends out his opinions via an email newsletter which a friend forwards to me on occasion. Here is the newest one, and since I haven’t responded line by line to the conservative arguments on health care reform in a while, I thought now would be a good time to do so. I’m in italics.

DJP Update 6-1-2009: Health System Reform & AMA – Additional Reflections; comments on recent AMA writings.

The advantages of being an American and living in the USA are many. One of the great liberties we enjoy is the First Amendment to the US Constitution (part of the Bill of Rights) : http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
AMENDMENT I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I always find it ironic when conservatives quote the Constitution given the penchant for the authoritarian-submissive personality among them. If that seems gratuitous, sorry, but I am always irritated when conservatives quote the Constitution as if it’s news to the rest of us.

Also, one of the advantages of being an AMA member and getting elected to be a delegate (or have the privilege, as I have, as a former AMA president) and to sit in the AMA House of Delegates is the right to discuss, debate, and yes, offer alternative views if one perceives the ship of state is heading in the wrong direction. That is part of leadership. Without the courage to enter the debate, one cannot earn the title of leader. Of course, one’s view may be defeated but then you have the comfort of the wisdom of Kipling’s poem “IF” and President Teddy Roosevelt’s words in his famous speech at the Sorbonne in 1910. See page 56 of my book, “On Leadership…” or go to:http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm and http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html

Interesting bit from the TR speech: “It is a mistake for any nation to merely copy another; but it is even a greater mistake, it is a proof of weakness in any nation, not to be anxious to learn from one another and willing and able to adapt that learning to the new national conditions and make it fruitful and productive therein.”

This would, unfortunately, require us to look past the end of our noses for potential solutions and, as Churchill might say, “This is something up with which I will not put!”

Another bit, “The poorest way to face life is to face it with a sneer. There are many men who feel a kind of twister pride in cynicism; there are many who confine themselves to criticism of the way others do what they themselves dare not even attempt. There is no more unhealthy being, no man less worthy of respect, than he who either really holds, or feigns to hold, an attitude of sneering disbelief toward all that is great and lofty, whether in achievement or in that noble effort which, even if it fails, comes to second achievement.”

This is always how I see the conservatives sneering at the idea of universal health care. To quote JFK, “We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.”

Enough time spent laying the foundation for the following. Consider this note a part of a “disconfirming opinion” as taught by Dean Donald Jacobs at Northwestern. Plus some praise too! Why has our AMA not put forth in writing to the world, and to those in government we negotiate with, our AMA policy of “unwavering opposition against the encroachment of government in the practice of medicine…” “including the right of physicians and patients to contract privately for health care without government interference.” Or “It is the policy of the AMA: (1) that any patient, regardless of age or health care insurance coverage, has both the right to privately contract with a physician for wanted or needed health services and to personally pay for those services; (2) to pursue appropriate legislative and legal means to permanently preserve the patient’s basic right to privately contract with physicians for wanted or needed health care services; …” See multiple AMA policies below and if you want more on the same topic, go to the PolicyFinder at the AMA Website: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/about-ama/11760.shtml Is there something that is not clear about the wording in our policy? I conclude no. Hasn’t it been repeated enough times in various policies? Certainly.

He is absolutely right here, and I have posted about these AMA policies and the one about single payer in the past, just to serve as a warning that, when it comes down to brass tacks (in the AMA’s case, when it comes down to its’ (our) House of Delegates), the AMA policy remains staunchly conservative.

Here is the problem. Our government controls our fees. That is a violation of our liberty.

Really? I see conservative physicians posting all the time about opting out of Medicare and other insurance plans precisely so that the government and insurers cannot control our fees. Virtually every nation (Canada a partial exception) allows physicians to practice outside or alongside the national system.

Property rights are an important component of our liberty. We have to recognize that government has the right to decide how much money to spend on some benefit, BUT government doesn’t have the right to determine what we charge for a service. AMA leaders for years have advocated defined contribution approach by government with ownership by the patient, and an array of choice of insurance options. Read some of the speeches of Dr. Stormy Johnson, Dr. Nancy Dickey, and mine. And of course, read anything you can find from another AMA president, Dr. Ed Annis, the gold standard for liberty in medicine. Not a price-control system that ends up creating loss of access to care for patients because the fixed payment is below the cost of delivering the service. Throughout history, price-fixing equals loss of availability of the product or service.

Isn’t it just hilarious that in a nation of nearly 50 million uninsured and another similar number underinsured, in a nation where we are all at risk of financial ruin due to health care catastrophes, that he expresses concern over “loss of access?” “Throughout history,” etc. Again, one does have to look past the end of one’s nose to see that this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

AMA has been “at the table” and we are told our policy is being advocated. Great. But has this policy been advocated? Certainly not in our AMA writings. The quest to end the SGR payment formula is good and AMA has advocated that. Unfortunately, we still granted the government the premise that it has the right to control our fees.

First, as noted, you can opt out. You can opt out of the Private Health Insurance market too, except, oh, yeah, unfettered markets have led to dominance by one or two insurers in virtually every large market in the country.

Secondly, this reminds me of President Eisenhower’s comments to his brother, “Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid .” This is true of Medicare as well.

In a recent message from AMA, we are advocating a MEI index approach in the negotiations. If one negotiates and allows the other side to set the framework of the debate, you will lose every time (See “On Leadership…). Why do we let government continue to set the paradigm that we don’t have a right to set our fees? Note the RECURRENT policies that direct action about privately contracting. AND reaffirmed many times! This is not optional. This is the command of the AMA House of Delegates, the policy setting body of the AMA. AND note the policy about government medicine. Why are we not speaking out against the “public option”? Medicare is going bankrupt, restricting our liberty, and we are not opposing expansion of government medicine? Why not? This is not optional based on our clear AMA policy. Thus you can see I do not share the enthusiasm of my friend Dr. Joe Heyman, AMA Board Chair, in his AMA opinion column dated June 1, 2009, entitled “Health system reform is coming — and you all helped”. I hope AMA’s help has not sanctioned a public system enlargement.

He is right about this. In spite of some of the AMA leadership’s conciliatory remarks, speeches, etc., AMA policy stands directly opposed to significant reform. The AMA Annual meeting is coming up June 13-17. It’ll be interesting to see how that goes.

However, what I do strongly agree with is the praise he gives to the Litigation Center of the AMA and State Medical Societies. I served on that committee when I was on the AMA Board and it does outstanding work. It fights the abuses of managed care, medical liability injustice, and much more. I wish every doctor in America knew of the great work it does. I also applaud our AMA putting in earlier writings that we need medical liability reform and antitrust relief for negotiating against the monopsony power some health insurers have. However, all of this will be wasted if physicians end up as captives of a government takeover of medicine. Hard to compete against government when it has unlimited taxpayer dollars and the power to punish by mandates and tax treatments. Before agreeing to a “better system” read the fine print carefully. One person’s version (or the government’s) of “better” may be entirely different than ours. Just like some caps on “non-economic” damages are great and others are worthless. Fine print!

Medical liability is still a hot issue for many physicians. In a recent survey by the California Medical Association, 40% still thought it was their number one concern. I do not know the political make up of the responders to that poll [though 67% were in practice more than 20 years – MY cohort!], nor of physicians in general [95% were CMA members], but my guess is that the 40% who still list that as their top concern are the older, whiter, male-r, and more conservative members of the profession.

We have to ask why membership continues to drop and what needs to be done to end the internecine battles among the various specialties. Why join AMA if my specialty does everything for me, including lobbying? Of course we know why everyone should be an AMA member and the Litigation Center is just one of many reasons. If everyone could balance-bill for the additional amount needed, there would be no need for different specialties to run to Congress and say, “Give me more of the Golden Apple as I am the fairest.” Remember Paris, the golden apple, and the three goddesses, Hera, Athena and Aphrodite? To the fairest goes the golden apple. The story ended badly and so will the present course our medical ship is on.

I think the answer about AMA membership is clear, but it is not at all the same answer arrived at by Dr. P. There are a large number of physicians who focus primarily on income or revenue and see medical liability premiums as a scourge to their take-home pay, but for most, this is not the focus of their lives, professional or otherwise. I would like to see us continue to make inroads into medical liability reform, but not through caps, but through honesty, alternative dispute resolution, and taking responsibility, as a profession, for our colleagues who have fallen behind.

On D-Day all allied forces agreed to land on the same coast of France and worked together for a common goal. Perhaps all physicians and every American citizen should watch the HBO special on Winston Churchill that played last night entitled “Into the Storm”. Read about it at:http://www.hbo.com/films/intothestorm/ Outstanding and a gold standard how to rally the nation against what appeared to be overwhelming force directed against Europe. No appeasement; no giving up; no “You don’t understand”. Instead, a fight to the end for important principles.

I am prone to hyperbole as well, so will let this pass…

But on the larger point, D-Day was about solidarity, exactly what we who are advocating for serious, comprehensive healthcare reform are promoting. We are in this community, this society, this national life, together. There is no religion, no school of thought (I always have to add, “except Ayn Rand’s”) whose central message is “every man for himself.”

As Uwe Reinhardt says, “Go explain to God why you cannot do this. He will laugh at you.”

Review the following AMA policies on privately contracting and unwavering opposition to government medicine. Trust but verify. Here is your chance to verify. [DJP here sites the policies I linked to earlier.]

In 1976 (yes, 1976) I testified before the U.S. House of Representatives’ Ways & Means Committee opposing the government takeover of medicine and opposing a single-payer system. Representative Rostenkowski was the chair of the committee. Since that time, I have not found any evidence to change that view and I now have had the opportunity, thanks to AMA, to visit the Canadian Medical Association and the British Medical Association’s annual meetings and learn directly from the doctors there about government promises and the failure to keep them. Check out one of my writings about this at: JAMA — Proposals for US National Health Insurance, December 3, 2003, Palmisano 290 (21): 2797. It contains the following:—–In June 2003, the Chairman of the British Medical Association characterized his nation’s single-payer health care system as “the stifling of innovation by excessive, intrusive audit . . . the shackling of doctors by prescribing guidelines, referral guidelines and protocols . . . the suffocation of professional responsibility by target-setting and production line values that leave little room for the professional judgment of individual doctors or the needs of individual patients.”4 His strong words come from long experience with a single-payer health system.——I also witnessed how the government breached the promise in Section 1801 of the Medicare law, (“Prohibition Against Any Federal Interference”), not to interfere with the practice of medicine. See Notes section of my book, “On Leadership…” at pages 255-258.

Yes, if you ignore everything wrong in our system, every other system looks awful. If you ignore every good thing in every other system around the world, our system looks great. If you focus on Canada and Britain, the two countries that perform near the bottom in the world for health care system performance (you know, down there close to as poorly as we do), our system looks pretty good. On the other hand, if you look at the high performing systems with great outcomes, satisfied patients and physicians, great high tech medicine and great primary care and low cost, we don’t look so hot.

This is the same ignorant line of reasoning promulgated by the Right Wing Noise Machine, Health Care Edition.

Most importantly, I have seen the sacrifice of the brave men and women who fight for our USA to preserve our liberty. I had the privilege during my tour of duty at the time of the Vietnam War to treat them at our airbase when they rotated back to the USA for 6 months. And I write about other military heroes in my book. Surely we cannot dishonor them by giving up our liberty. Sounds too strong? Have at it.

Oh, yeah, conservatives loves them some soldiers. That’s why they’re in our US Socialized Medicine system, the VA. You know this one. [In the interest of full disclosure, I have a friend whose son has PTSD, from Iraq, and the VA is failing him. We need to put pressure on our Congress to step up and make this right.]

Let me end this discussion by again recommending that everyone read “The Road to Serfdom”.The author is F.A. Hayek, the co-winner of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics in 1974 and recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1991.Here is what the back cover of the paperback edition (ISBN-13: 978-0-226-32055-7) of “The Road to Serfdom – The Definitive Edition”, edited by Bruce Caldwell, says:”For F.A. Hayek, the collectivist idea of empowering government with increasing economic control would lead not to a utopia but to the horrors of Nazi Germany and fascist Italy.”The original text was in the book was written in 1944. Think about it. At the start of Chapter Nine, he has two quotes: Here is one: In a country where the sole employer is the State, opposition means death by slow starvation. The old principle: who does not work shall not eat, has been replaced by a new one: who does not obey shall not eat. —Leon Trotsky (1937) Think about how that applies to medicine. Would it not be better to bring about change in medicine by testing rather than just getting an idea and implementing it for the whole nation? Imagine if we gave patients new drugs without proper testing. I believe there would be many disasters. As Louis Pasteur said,”Imagination should give wings to our thoughts, but we always need decisive experimental proof. “The debate in our Land of Liberty is upon us. We may hear things that are not true. As scientist, it is our duty to insist on due diligence. As George Orwell said, “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” It doesn’t have to be universal deceit, it can be universal failure to do the homework and testing and a rush to pass bills. It can be erroneous statistics with sampling errors and failure to compare apples vs apples. You get the idea. The quest for truth can be a lonely path. Leaders must courageously pursue it. Let’s be a revolutionary for truth!–

One would think this is a satirical critique on the modern conservative-authoritarian movement, the failure of regulation of the marketplace, and the interjection of commercial interests into medical research, but sadly, no.

Liberals are anti-authoritarian, for goodness sake. You think Thomas Jefferson was a conservative authoritarian?!?

It’s just not worth wasting the time on.
*sigh*

—I look forward to the debate at the June AMA House of Delegates in Chicago. Watch for “Resolution 203 – Right to Privately Contract” at AMA June Meeting in Reference Committee B. Resolve two of that resolution deals with the right to restore fairness to negotiations with the private health insurers and the government. There are at least 19 state and specialty co-sponsors. This resolution elevates the issue to highest priority. The people of America need to know what is at risk with their medical care. If we don’t sound the alarm, I believe other grassroots groups will take the leadership for a clarion call to action and the world will wonder what happened to our AMA.

Well, I hope the HOD has the chutzpa to smack these people down once and for all, but I’m not counting on it.

Baucus Watch, Public Option issues: Columbia Journalsm Review

Baucus Watch, Part X : CJR:

Columbia Journalism review tries to get reporters to focus on the substance of the Public Option debate, rather than on the horse-race, who’s up, who’s down BS they generally like to cover ’cause it’s easier and more fun. As a reminder of the thinking in general, you can read more about the “weak” vs. “strong” public plan options here.

“To move this story—and it’s an important one—beyond the process of reform to the substance of reform, we offer a few questions for reporters:
• Who will really be able to join a public plan—everyone, or just those who don’t have other coverage or are too ill for insurers to take them on as customers?
• Can workers with coverage from their employers go to a public plan if it’s cheaper? In other words, is there a real choice for everyone?
• How will coverage be financed—by taxpayer dollars, or by premiums from people needing insurance?
• Will the government provide the coverage, as it does for Medicare’s hospital and doctor benefits, or will private insurers provide it, as they do for Medicare’s prescription drug benefit? There’s a big difference here.
• What will the benefit package look like? Which special interests are working to make sure that their latest gee-whiz technology gets covered?
• Will doctors and hospitals be paid the Medicare rates, or something higher?
• If they get the higher rates, then where will the cost-savings come from?
• If private carriers provide the benefits with more of the same inefficient billing costs, where will the administrative savings come from?”

The High Concentration of U.S. Health Care Expenditures

The High Concentration of U.S. Health Care Expenditures:

“Half of the population spends little or nothing on health care, while 5 percent of the population spends almost half of the total amount. Examining the distribution of health care expenses among the U.S. population sheds light on areas where changes in policy might bring about the greatest savings.

“Select to download print version (PDF File, 785 KB).

Indeed, well run micro-systems that exist at Mayo, Cleveland, Geisinger, Virginia-Mason and others show us it’s possible.

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States and OECD Countries – Kaiser Family Foundation

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States and OECD Countries – Kaiser Family Foundation:

“Health spending is rising faster than incomes in most developed countries, which raises questions about how these countries will pay for future health care needs. The issue may be particularly acute in the United States, which not only spends much more per capita on health care than any other country, but which also has had one of the fastest growth rates in health spending among developed countries. Despite this higher level of spending, the United States does not achieve better outcomes on many important health measures. This paper uses information from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)1 to compare the level and growth rate of health care spending in the United States with other OECD countries. In an increasingly competitive international economy, policymakers in the United States will need to be aware of how the health spending and spending growth in the United States compares to that of other nations.”

George Lakoff: Empathy, Sotomayor, and Democracy: The Conservative Stealth Strategy

George Lakoff: Empathy, Sotomayor, and Democracy: The Conservative Stealth Strategy:

“Let’s start with the attack on empathy. Why empathy? Isn’t empathy a good thing?
Empathy is at the heart of progressive thought. It is the capacity to put oneself in the shoes of others — not just individuals, but whole categories of people: one’s countrymen, those in other countries, other living beings, especially those who are in some way oppressed, threatened, or harmed. Empathy is the capacity to care, to feel what others feel, to understand what others are facing and what their lives are like. Empathy extends well beyond feeling to understanding, and it extends beyond individuals to groups, communities, peoples, even species. Empathy is at the heart of real rationality, because it goes to the heart of our values, which are the basis of our sense of justice.

“Progressives care about others as well as themselves. They have a moral obligation to act on their empathy — a social responsibility in addition to personal responsibility, a responsibility to make the world better by making themselves better. This leads to a view of a government that cares about its citizens and has a moral obligation to protect and empower them. Protection includes worker, consumer, and environmental protection as well as safety nets and health care. Empowerment includes what is in the president’s stimulus plan: infrastructure, education, communication, energy, the availability of credit from banks, a stock market that works. No one can earn anything at all in this country without protection and empowerment by the government. All progressive legislation is made on this basis. “

Very well written post in defense of empathy. It is amazing to have to defend empathy to people who claim to be moral Christians.

Annals of Medicine: The Cost Conundrum: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker

Annals of Medicine: The Cost Conundrum: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker:

A damning look by Atul Gawande at the way we pay for medical care in America. The final three paragraphs of this must read article.

“Something even more worrisome is going on as well. In the war over the culture of medicine—the war over whether our country’s anchor model will be Mayo or McAllen—the Mayo model is losing. In the sharpest economic downturn that our health system has faced in half a century, many people in medicine don’t see why they should do the hard work of organizing themselves in ways that reduce waste and improve quality if it means sacrificing revenue.

“In El Paso, the for-profit health-care executive told me, a few leading physicians recently followed McAllen’s lead and opened their own centers for surgery and imaging. When I was in Tulsa a few months ago, a fellow-surgeon explained how he had made up for lost revenue by shifting his operations for well-insured patients to a specialty hospital that he partially owned while keeping his poor and uninsured patients at a nonprofit hospital in town. Even in Grand Junction, Michael Pramenko told me, “some of the doctors are beginning to complain about ‘leaving money on the table.’ ”

“As America struggles to extend health-care coverage while curbing health-care costs, we face a decision that is more important than whether we have a public-insurance option, more important than whether we will have a single-payer system in the long run or a mixture of public and private insurance, as we do now. The decision is whether we are going to reward the leaders who are trying to build a new generation of Mayos and Grand Junctions. If we don’t, McAllen won’t be an outlier. It will be our future.”

I went to the Dartmouth Atlas web site myself and found this interesting tid-bit:



I think it fits in well with the ethos described in Gawande’s article.

It is much easier to continue aggressive treatment rather than spend time having an honest discussion about the benefits and burdens of continuing treatment.


Thanks to whoever put the link up on the Howard Dean Webinar tonight!



UPDATE: This recent Archives of Internal Medicine article is particularly apporpriate:
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/169/10/954


This also, perversely, can make the hospital statistics in mortality look good, as well. As an intensivist, I can get almost ANYONE out of the the ICU and subsequently out of the hospital if I ignore the true outcome for the patient and the family: additional suffering, minimal prolongation of a life at its end, and so on.

My colleagues who do practice best EOL practices know that our ICU and hospital mortality numbers suffer, but I have no doubt that having honest discussions with my patients and families is the right thing to do. You may have heard this for your patients, “Thanks for the straight talk, Doc,” or “Nobody talked to me about my prognosis before.”

Of course, this is not new information, but we still need to do better as physicians:http://www.chestjournal.org/content/128/1/465.full?ck=nck

QUALITY: Doctors Oppose Insurer Control Over Patient Care Decisions | New America Blogs

QUALITY: Doctors Oppose Insurer Control Over Patient Care Decisions New America Blogs:

“Some doctors have decided they are fed up and not going to take it any more.California pain specialist Dr. Bradley Carpentier is among them.

“While Republican strategists stir up fears about government meddling in health care, the San Francisco Chronicle reports on doctors like Carpentier who are concerned about insurance companies that come between them and their patients.”

Go read the rest.

The EMC Research Study is here.

Missoulian: Single-payer mentions draw cheers at Baucus-sponsored health care talk

Missoulian: Single-payer mentions draw cheers at Baucus-sponsored health care talk

The hearing ranged broadly over the possibilities for reform, but what clearly resonated for McArthur was something Baucus’ chief of staff, Jon Selib, said a couple of times.

Discussing why a single-payer system of health insurance wasn’t viable, Selib made reference to the more than 150 million Americans who are covered by some sort of employer-provided health care.

“A lot of people like that,” Selib said.

When the time came for questions, McArthur stood up and asked a simple question. Looking across a standing-room-only crowd of about 275, he asked how many were happy with their employer-based health insurance.Less than 10 people raised their hands.

“The number is bogus,” McArthur said. “It’s not working for 95 percent of us.” McArthur drew resounding applause.

In fact, any mention of single-payer health care insurance brought raucous cheers and clapping.

Any other solution to health care reform – including Baucus’ “balanced” plan that would create a mix of public and private plans – was received more coolly.

Tuesday’s session was one of a handful of events Baucus is sponsoring around the state this week. He chairs the Senate’s powerful Finance Committee, and is the point man on health care reform.

He did not attend Tuesday’s meeting, but Selib did, and he heard what the senator himself has heard since he announced that single-payer wasn’t really on the table.

As Selib worked to massage that point, one man barked out, “Oh bull—-.”

Tom Roberts, president of the Western Montana Clinic and moderator at the session, asked the crowd to be civil, but the man had made his point.